🆕 Never Post! The State of Podcasting Roundtable, Oct. 2024

Friends! A Very Special Never Post for you this afternoon!

In this ep, senior producer Hans Buetow leads a conversation with three makers and thinkers in the podcast space — Mia Lobel (Freelance Cafe, fmr. Pushkin Industries), Lauren Passell (Tink Media) and Ronald Young, Jr. (Weight For It).

They perform a health check on the podcast industry, to see who it’s working for, and who not. Hot goss and sharp insights, for those in and outside the industry. Listen on the website, where you get your pods, and members: ad free in your private feed.

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• Call us at 651 615 5007 to leave a voice mail
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• and tell us about POSTS THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE

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Links:

• Alex Goldman’s podcast economics Tweet
• Buzzsprout’s podcasting industry stats
• IAB’s 2022 Podcasting Advertising Revenue Report

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Find Our Guests:

• Mia Lobel — Freelance Cafe
• Lauren Passell — Tink Media
• Ronald Young, Jr. — Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Twitter

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Never Post’s producers are Audrey Evans, Georgia Hampton and The Mysterious Dr. Firstname Lastname. Our senior producer is Hans Buetow. Our executive producer is Jason Oberholtzer. The show’s host is Mike Rugnetta. 

Never Post is a production of Charts & Leisure

Folks, hello and welcome to Neverpost, a show for and about the Internet. I am Hans Buetow and I am the senior producer for the show. We have got something really special for you today. It's a bit different from what we normally do. But if you have been listening to Never Post since the beginning, you are gonna recognize the format of this episode.

If you have not been listening since the beginning, first of all, welcome. Glad to have you. And second of all, if you go back to our episode 0, the first thing we publish, you will see a roundtable conversation with some very smart media people discussing what it is like to try to be independent in this here media landscape in which we find ourselves. We found that conversation really valuable, and we heard from a lot of you that you also found it useful. So we'd like to do it again.

More of that, please. And today, we're gonna do just that. But instead of talking about independent media, we are gonna do a deep dive into one very specific type of media. This medium, podcasting, to see how it's doing. We wanna have an open conversation with some very smart people about this thing we are embroiled in, and that we assume you, since you are listening to a podcast right now to hear this, we assume you are also interested in this.

But first, if you have not been breathlessly following the nuances of the trajectory of podcasting for the past 15 years, let's cover a little bit of history to contextualize. Starting in and around 2014, podcasting saw a meteoric growth for a medium. This growth was driven by listeners discovering the medium, then it was followed by creators who wanted to talk to those listeners, and then by advertisers who wanted to support those creators talking to those listeners. Podcast companies were formed and grew very quickly. Jobs were created.

Shows were built. A lot of things flourished as cash was easy, ROI was pretty murky, and everything looked kinda possible. This growth reached a high watermark during the pandemic and then it started to slow. In the past 4 years, the ad market has continued to grow but contracted in scope as advertisers got spooked by uncertain economic headwinds, and they pulled ad budgets for all but the biggest, the most reliable investments in their eyes. And as a part of that contraction, some big companies realize that their big investments to the tune of tens to 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars, one show in particular in the billions with a b, those investments in specific podcasts were never gonna return what those companies wanted.

So those companies did what all big tech and media companies do. They laid people off, they shuttered divisions and they divested from the future of the medium. What some observers saw in this was a commentary on the future of podcasting. But that's not what I think it actually is. A reflection of big players realizing their past decisions were way too expensive.

This led others feeling spooked about the future and the layoffs and the contractions that started with the big players kinda moved throughout the industry. Now this is the end game of something we have been seeing in other digital media over the last, what, decade, decade and a half? Massive players consolidating a bunch of the industry, realizing that it is unsustainable and then just letting it die. Huge buyouts, rounds and rounds of layoffs, platform pivots, contraction. Which brings us to today.

Bigger overall audiences, smaller individual show audiences, fractured connections, massive industry valuation, but no funding to be seen by the vast majority of podcasters. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about all of that after this quick break. Joining us are Lauren Passell, author of Podcast to the newsletter and founder of Tink Media, which is a PR and marketing firm that specializes in podcast and which, very full disclosure, Never Post employed the services of through July of 2024. Hello, Lauren.

Hi.

We've got Mia Lobel here, audio producer, former head of content at Pushkin Industries where she oversaw revisionist history, broken record and much much more. Mia is also the author of the newsletter Freelance Cafe and is an adjunct professor at the Newmark Jay School. Mia, hello.

Hello.

And very excited to have Ronald Young junior with us. Ronald is an audio producer and podcast host as well as the creator of the multi award winning podcast, Wait For It. Ronald has also hosted Leaving the Theater and is the current host of Pop Culture Debate Club from Lemonade and BBC. Ronald, thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

We are so excited to have all 3 of you here to talk about and dig deep into the state of the podcasting industry. So mostly in this conversation, I think we are interested in how one builds a business. Podcasting, specifically. And if you even can right now, could one even do that? And that to me is what is implied by this word industry.

Right? So a distinct economic sector producing its own goods, made up by relationships between many businesses and other commercial entities. So what does that look like for podcasting right now? And we'd love to do kind of a health check and a really honest conversation about what's happening in podcast because it has been a ride the last 4 years, the last 10 years, the last 15 years, and we're in a very specific place. And so we'd like to kinda check-in with all of you about that.

And to start that, I wanna do kind of a rapid fire question around to everybody just to get us kicked off. So on a scale of 1 to 10, one being anyone can do it tomorrow with minimal effort, no problem, and 10 being nearly impossible for anyone and everyone, how difficult is it for someone with no preexisting audience to build one large enough to make a living by podcasting? Mia, I'd love to hear from you first. Answer, 1 to 10, how tough to build that audience?

I mean, I have so many qualifying questions. I'm not good at this one to 10 thing because, like, do they have good storytelling chops? Are they super passionate and really wanna do this and only this and nothing else? Do they are they willing to put in the time to do both the creation of the show and the marketing of the show? I mean, so I guess with all of that, I'll give it a 5 because that's a total cop out.

I don't know.

Okay. Okay. I was hearing a 7 in that, but 5. Let's do 5. Great.

Great. Ronald, what about you?

Like an a 7 or an 8.

Okay. And Lauren?

I'm 3. Overly optimistic, perhaps, but I yeah. I think I'm done.

3, 5, and 7 is the perfect range, I think, to have this conversation about where we are right now and what we're doing. And, I kinda ask this to get started because last week, the former host of Reply All, current host of the podcast Hyperfix, Alex Goldman tweeted that he was running the numbers and estimates that for him to make a living, to pay his team a living wage, and pay for all of the things that a media company and its employees need to just, you know, survive. Not get rich but survive. He needs 200,000 people to listen to each episode of the show. So we have done or never post similar calculations and we have gotten basically the same number.

So just real quick, like, what are the most common ways that people make money from podcasting? Ronald, I'm gonna go to you first. Like, how do we get the money in the door?

I mean, typically, it's through advertising. But I could tell you, like, personally for me, most of the money that I've made from podcasting has been on producing other people's podcasts, which is is an internal way to fund the projects that I actually wanna do. But in making a podcast, like in even making Wait For It, we hadn't sold ads for the 1st season of the podcast. I think we sold one ad by the time we got through the, 1st season of the podcast, and that's with having a Tribeca award, a write up at the New York time, and 3 Podcast Academy Awards, and we sold one ad. So, it wasn't until season 2 that we really got a partnership that really brought some money in the door, and that really just paid for the production of season 2.

It really didn't give us much more than that. If we start to calculate, like, what it actually takes for me as, like, to be the senior producer, showrunner, host, and writer of the podcast, and I've never been paid for this show, then, yeah. I would probably say that the numbers that the Goldman number is probably accurate. But I've never depended on one show to be the thing that's going to make the living. I've always stepped into different bags.

And I feel like my pushback to most of that is always be, like, why do you keep trying to make one show to pay all your bills? Like, that's that's winning the lottery. You know what I mean? Even actors are doing that. You know what I mean?

Like, they're everyone's doing multiple things. So So when someone says something like that, it's almost like they're saying, like, hey, everybody listen to this show so we can make I can make a bag of money and pay rent. And I'm, like, well, most of us are hustling to pay rent, which is kind of the reality of working in audio production.

Hustling to pay rent is, like, gonna I think, gonna be such a theme for this coming forward. So I really wanna come back to that. So it sounds like in that you're talking about advertising, you're talking about doing work for hire for other folks and some partnerships. But, like, Lauren, you see a lot of podcasts in the work that you do. What are some of the other ways that money comes in for folks?

Well, I think when people come to me, they assume that they're gonna have to traditionally advertise on the CPM model.

Yeah. And It just cost per 1,000. So if you have 200,000 people listening, that's gonna be couple $1,000 per episode, and it's, of course, dependent on how many you produce and how how many avails you have and all of the things that are in the middle.

Yeah. And I just I just think there's so many other ways to monetize, and I don't I think the CPM model isn't going to work for almost everyone. And so these are creative people I'm talking to who are good at engaging audiences and creating intimate relationships with these people, I think that the more creative they can get about, like, audience supported membership platforms, I'm also always pushing people towards exploring someone to sponsor a season or even a miniseries because I think that, podcasters some podcasters, especially some of the very small independent ones I'm working with, they don't know that they can go to a brand and ask for $10,000 or something. Mhmm. And I know that it's not gonna work every single time, but I think the there's the CPM advertising that most people come in wanting to talk to me about, and I am just excited to push them away into other options.

Mia, you have worked at some big organizations with, more revenue probably flowing through than anything we've talked about right now. Like, is there anything that we missed in the from the revenue perspective, that you feel like is an actual viable way for shows to bring in money?

No. I think I think Ronald and Lauren nailed it. One thing I'll add to the conversation though is grants, and that is, that is paying for the show that I am working on right now. It's called Face Off, the US versus China, and it's a foreign policy podcast. It is not meant to be sort of widely popular.

We're going for a very targeted audience, and we got a grant, from Carnegie to make this show. And we've gotten a grant for 2 seasons now. So grant writing is a full time job in and of itself, so most producers I know don't have time to do that and also make their show. But it's a wonderful limited return on investment way of getting a show made.

I think that makes the full round of revenue sources that seem the most reliable with the exception of, like, maybe a couple of outliers that, I wonder if even still exist anymore. Things like merch, things like live shows, things like the dreaded IP sales, which actually feels like one of the the first and biggest casualties, of the last couple of years where that doesn't seem like a viable thing and it's definitely completely infused with luck to be able to get that sort of thing. And so when when we look at, like, how Ronald presented this as, like, whole first season of Wait For It, you know, got one ad. Lauren saying you'd be surprised by who can come forward to pay and get sponsorship. That 200,000 number, how does that feel about right to everybody to make a sustainable living for 3 to 4 people making a show?

Is 200,000 about right?

I don't think his math is wrong. Right? Like, I read that tweet very carefully, and I'm so glad that he was so transparent about his thinking and his numbers. More of that. That's amazing.

I just think the 200,000 per episode number is unattainable for the majority of podcasters. That is a huge number.

Yeah.

And most podcast audiences are niche and smaller than that, including shows at big podcast companies. Yes. There are the shows that, like, go up there and get, like, revisionist style numbers and serial style numbers and Smartlist and those big shows. Right? But the majority and there are charts to show this.

The majority of shows get a whole lot less than that. One of the things that I spend a lot of time thinking about, and I've been working very closely with Kristin Hayford, who's this amazing, marketer, former LAist, now independent person, is raising the value of each individual listener. And so retraining buyers, sponsors, advertisers of all kinds that the audiences that you are getting through a podcast are worth more than your average click. Right? And so you're gonna need fewer downloads to get an equivalent amount of money.

Basically, a much smaller podcast could indeed be viable. Mhmm. Because I just don't people can't get 200 like, I I think Alex is incredibly smart and amazing as a producer. I hate to say it. I'm very skeptical that he's gonna reach that goal.

I'm glad you said that because the 200,000 an episode seems tied to the math, kind of in the way that I think the CPM model is, and that leaves doesn't leave all this space for other things, including an anonymous donor who can give funding. I mean, where are they? I don't know. But that is They're

anonymous. I mean, it's it's in the definition. We don't know where they are.

I'm on pins and needles. Yeah.

So I think that's interest I'm interested in what Ronald thinks about that because, like, that feels hard to build a business plan off of just like IP felt hard to build a business, selling your IP felt hard to build a business plan. And, you know, Ronald, when you entered into this space and and world, how did you experience the idea of scale as we've been talking about it with revenue?

You know, it's funny. It's like I I mean, I I guess, and I've you've kind of caught me in a place where I've, like, kinda soured on podcasting as an industry a lot. So it feels like it a lot and probably because I was late to the party and I got accolades that if I would've gotten them in 2012, I'd have, like, $1,000,000 right now. But, like, I because I got them in 2023, like, it it really like, everything had changed. The money had contracted.

The market was gone. Like, everything was, like, a lot different now than it was, in the time before. So I feel like we really do have to hustle for every dime we have. And luckily, like, I was already used to doing that. Like, I was already used to, like, having more than one job and, like, working to, like, to pay most of the bills in that case.

So I feel like now, when I think about, like, what most of the revenue models look like, the reason why I don't feel as optimistic is because even in the stuff that feels the most promising, you still, in some cases, have to get lucky. Because I've never had an anonymous donor come And I've heard of several people who have. Have had anonymous donors, like, here's a $1,000,000,000. And I'm just like, yo, man. People are out here, like, busting their asses.

And like, getting an anonymous donation would be incredible. But the reality of it is, if you can get like 10 really excited patrons, then, you know, maybe you could pay for the hosting fees for your podcast if you stay committed. You hope to, like, double that again and again over time. So it feels it feels tough.

It breaks my heart. You are absolutely right about what you're saying that if you had gotten all of those accolades and all of the attention that you have justifiably gotten over the last couple years, 3 years earlier, it would be a wholly different universe. And it tells

me I would

be on a beach.

Yeah. And I'm so I am so curious. She's standing

in your microphone.

Have all those accolades jostled your numbers at all?

Yeah. It it did. I'm gonna tell you my biggest spikes. I got a spike when we, when we won the Podcast Academy Awards. We got a spike when they talked about us in the New York Times.

But do you wanna know when we got our biggest spike? When I guest appeared on Normal Gossip. Yes. That was the biggest bump that we've seen. It was why like, the numbers that we got off of and shout out to Normal Gossip, Alex and Kelsey.

Like like, shout out to them. That show is is doing numbers that really created buzz. And to be honest with you, the most significant spikes I've ever seen has never been from an accolade. It's always been from a, from an appearance or from something like that. I'm sorry.

That was a long winded answer to your question. But, yes, they they have jostled the numbers.

I also just think there's a time thing here that we need to account for because Alex said 18 months.

To get to 200,000. Yeah.

Yeah. And I would like to account that into my answer whether it's possible or not because I also think 18 months, no.

But, like Yeah.

And, actually, this reminds me, Hans, you came I got an email back email from Hans saying, hi. I'm Hans, and I'm interested in working with Tank. And I was like, Hans? Oh my god. Because I was listening to your name on credits when I was a BBB podcast listener, so that was very exciting for me.

Me. And you came and asked about numbers, and I feel like I left that call, and I was like, Hans is never gonna call me again because I just depressed him when I told him about because you came with this plan, and I was like, I don't oh, I was like, yikes. I'm not sure if that's possible, and I never thought I'd talk to you ever again. Can you tell me how you felt after that call, what the conversation was after you had that call with me where I kind of said, your plan is not possible. And I'm the one that's saying I'm optimistic.

And I was like, it's not possible. And how is it lining up with what you came to me with with the plan that you came to me? Because you had a plan kinda similar to Alex'.

We had a plan completely similar to Alex because I'm coming from a place where I hadn't meaningfully launched a show since 2017. And so when you launch a show with somebody notable in 2017, there's a certain level of immediate success you can you just expect, And that was the benchmark. And then I went and I worked at, you know, the New York Times which is, like, you have zero perspective after that on what an appropriately sized show is. And so I came in thinking, okay, let's be conservative about this. And I built models and numbers based on my 2017 experience of the world, and you came in and said, and you were right.

You know, Buzzsprout says that to be in the top 1% of podcasts, you get just over 5,000 listens within the 1st 7 days. Puts you in the top 1 percent of podcasts.

That what? That's But

that's that's including podcasts that had one episode 8 years ago. Correct?

You know, that's a good that's a good question of what what goes into that data. Hey there. Hans from the future editing, Hans cutting this up, Hans breaking in here to give you just a little bit of context to these numbers that I didn't give during the recording. So these numbers are from 2022 from the popular podcast host Buzzsprout and they represent listenership across Buzzsprout's catalog of podcasts. These numbers are cited often for their measurement of listens since they are one of the few places that are able or trying to measure it.

It's really tough to know across the industry what the numbers are. So we are using this individual slice of data as a proxy for all podcasting. Now the overall numbers for the industry will be larger, but you can expect the ratios probably to stay about the same. It's not perfect, but it's what we have. Okay.

Back to it. And this is, like, the top of the top of the podcasting. And so to say we can't become sustainable until we hit 200,000 Yeah. But 1% of people are lucky to get to 5,000? Like, this I think for me brings up this question of when we talk about digital media, like YouTube influencers, podcasting included in that, There's still a lot of talk about how anyone can make it doing them.

Like, we we hear and probably bandy around the word democratized more often than we think if we were to actually calculate it. You just need an idea and a microphone and people out there are ready and waiting to listen. And, like, that might be true, but with that gap between 5,200,000, the implication that you make any money seems, like, increasingly remote and maybe just wrong and, like, I don't know. I wanna start with Mia, like, what do you what do you think about that gap? Because you've worked on you've worked on both sides of that of the, like, 5000 and the 200,000.

Yes. I mean, you know, at at Pushkin, we had, these 10 poll shows that came up in the, like, in 2019 and earlier, right, that, like, did amazingly well. And then anything that we tried to launch after that did less well. And it's not because the shows were less good. It's because the market had just become more saturated.

I mean, we put incredible talent behind the mic that did not that just did not get the kind of numbers that we had seen prior to that. And that is just because there's so much more to listen to and people can be much more choosy about what they want to hear. And if they have, there's only so many shows that, like, any one person can listen to. Like, that all makes good logical sense. That said, I would never discourage anyone from making a podcast if they really wanna make a podcast.

And Normal Gossip is a perfect example of that. Like, Alex is a super talented creator and had this amazing idea and got it done and found an audience. And they did it independently, which is my favorite part. And, like Key. Yeah.

That I still think having a small, loyal audience for something that you care passionately about is worth it depending on what sustainability means for you in terms of making a living. Right? Like, if you're fine doing what Ronald's doing and still making other people's shows and scrapping your, you know, your money together, doing consulting, doing teaching, whatever it is you're doing, and also you get to make your show in your way independently, and you're enjoying the process, great. If you get 200,000 downloads an episode, amazing. But if you don't, it's not considered a failure.

Right? And do what you have to do in order to make your life sustainable. The economy of it has changed, and I don't think that's good or bad. It is just what happens when a lot of people get into it. It's not about changing the industry.

It's about creating space in the industry for independence to support each other collectively so that you can have a smaller audience and still make it sustainable. That is the thing that I think about day in and day out. I don't have any solutions as of yet, but I I do believe that is possible and there's enough talent out there who really know how to do this and don't work for one of the big podcast companies that I I believe this can happen somehow, someway, sometime.

I feel like I I feel like I I agree the majority of what you're saying, Mia, I agree with. I think but I wanna, like, highlight one thing, which is that I truly think, when I think about, like, just popular podcasts over time that, like, that have been popular in the last few years, 2 that stand out to me, of course, Normal Gossip, we already talked about. And then also, Maintenance Phase, which is another podcast that was started independently, kind of on the backs of a writer, Michael Hobbs, and Aubrey Gordon, which she's doing, like, in terms of, like, fat activism and the fat communities. Like, it was something that was independent. And I feel like just the idea now, what I'm thinking is, there's a lot of executives out there and decision makers, people who I've talked to, who I've interfaced with, who I've pitched to, who have made offers, all of that.

I've been in relationships with those people, and I still get the sense that they don't get what audiences actually want to listen to, like, what they actually want in front of them. And that's evidenced by what you see rise to the top. Like, of course, there are celebrity podcasts that make it. Like, you'll get like a Kelsey Brothers New Heights. You'll get that that just jumps to the top for a litany of different reasons.

But when they try to repeat that specific formula, they find that it's not just about celebrities and a microphone. It's not just about that. There's something else going on there. Because, again, I'll keep saying normal gossip all out this whole hour, which is that, like, normal gossip comes along and there's no celebrities. They're literally telling us stories about people we've never heard of.

And we're just like, woah, this is revolutionary. You know what I mean? So I feel like there's something about, like, who gets to be the expert in deciding what shows get made that I think is 100% broken. And I think that's what's kinda, like, screwing a lot of us right now.

I think it's there's a lot more power in this cycle of who promotes who, because the story you're telling about normal gossip is same story that normal gossip could tell about whoever featured them. You know, like, I somebody who got featured on 99 Percent Invisible gets the 99 PI jump. 99 Percent Invisible, they are where they are because they got the TAL jump. TAL got where they are because they got the NPR jump. Like, everybody of real consequential size for the most part, broadly speaking, has that story of someone anointed me, Someone brought me on and told people where to find him and their legions followed me.

But I wanna pick up a thread that I'm hearing between Mia and Ronald here about people playing with each other, people being in in collaboration, and I just wanna I wanna hit Lauren with this. I feel like there used to be a tenor. I grew up in the tenor, the public radio tenor where it was a rising tide raises all boats. If we can just get listeners to listen to podcasts, they will listen to everyone's podcasts. And so, like, let's all join hands and let's go to 3rd coast and let's have fun.

3rd coast International Audio Festival which is held in Chicago over a year. It's a creators was is a creators event, all about craft and we get to celebrate that. I don't feel that kinship anymore in the industry. But Lauren, can you am I wrong? Is it have we moved to, like, hey, that's my podcast listener?

That person only has 5 podcasts and you're taking one of the slots but I want it? Or are we still playing nice? Are we doing what Mia is talking about? Are we able to do what Mia is talking about, which is to come together and work and play with each other?

I talk about promo swaps all the time when I talk at conferences. And one time, this guy stood up and said, why would I send someone else to another podcast? And I said, sir, I think you're in the wrong business because that's not what we do here. And what you're talking about is what I would say 80% of my business is, is working with other podcasters. It's the only thing I believe in, actually.

I tell people you can buy an ad. You can get a spike from being on something. You can, get featured on Apple podcasts and get a spike and then go right back down. But the organic traffic but the thing is it takes a lot of time. But it's the one thing I tell people with certainty.

I say so little with, like, tons of asterisk, but I believe with certainty, borrowing audience is what works. It just takes time. And the other thing I think that works is getting a personal recommendation from a friend. I think we need to all get better about that. I believe that very strongly that that does work, but I think it really takes a lot of time.

And the thing is the shows that are probably at the at the top of the charts, they're not really generally playing with other shows. That's the unfortunate part.

That's interesting. So so, like, they're not really Not anymore. Yeah. Not anymore. They're like they, sometimes will anoint other people, but they're not really in collaborate in true collaboration.

Is that what you mean?

Exactly. I mean, even, like, ones that I really love.

Yeah.

I think I and because this is my business to, you know, think that way in every single moment of my day. I'm thinking how can I cross promote, and I know who to go to and who never to go to?

Why did that change? I mean, is that that feels like a change. Why did that change?

I mean, you know, one example is NPR 1. Right? Like, NPR 1 used to put outside shows on their network. Right? They it was basically like an an extra radio station that would, you know, play a bunch of NPR podcasts and then they would drop in some independent or outside podcasts.

And they ultimately decided to stop doing that, I think, because they were like, well, why are we helping somebody else? Right? And that, you know Yeah. Like

Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. No.

No. No. I wanna I mean, but that's I I think that's wrong thinking. I mean, that's corporate thinking.

Yeah.

And if you can think more collectively, then you realize that, like, actually, by doing that, you are helping the whole industry. But maybe I'm just, like, naive and whatever. I don't know. Tell me, Ronald.

I don't think you're wrong. I think when you as as you when Hans asked the question, the first thing that jumped in my mind was speculation. And so this could just be conspiracy theory, what I'm thinking. But what I think happened was think about when promo swaps were the most prevalent. Right?

Like, we're thinking, like, 2012 up through 2014, you got cereal. So right around there, 2014 through 2016. So think about when promo swapping probably became like a little bit more sparse. If it is, and this is all speculation, if it is between 2016 and 2020, then it makes sense that when we had the influx of the greatest amount of cash into podcasting and corporate suits and folks that are in there, there's gonna be people that are like, Well, you can't swap that. That's too valuable.

Like, what are we getting in return? And they're examining something that isn't just about like the scrappy upstarts going together and the rising tide lifts all boats. But there's probably promo swaps that did not happen that could have potentially killed a great show simply because they were like, well, what what's in it for us? That collaboration isn't there anymore. I'm not well, it's not gone completely, Lauren.

I know we're I'm trying to stay positive, but it's not gone completely. No. I know. But it's certainly not what it was.

It still exists among independents. I am certain of that. It does not exist at the corporate level. I'll agree with you there.

And also, I just wanna say it's, like, the promo swaps, I think people are generally going number for number, I have found. When we're doing 32nd promo swaps, people wanna go number for number or whatever. I have been able to creatively do a feed swap where I'm sending an entire episode to another show. If I do the work ahead of time, I do all the planning, I put my producer hat on, and I go out to a show much bigger, and I think, okay. Are you going on vacation this day?

I found this you know, if Mhmm. I have been able to do that. So the the I find more freedom when I am actually doing a feed swap

Mhmm.

Because it's a great piece of content and I can maybe solve a podcaster's problem by giving them a a down an episode or something like that. I that takes a lot of work, and it's not doesn't happen every time. The promo stops, though, I find people going number for number.

I mean, it also makes me think of, like, you know, these networks that have gotten so big that they only ever promote other shows in their network. And why would they consider

Yeah.

Supporting a show that doesn't benefit them in some direct way? You know? And I think that's, you know, it makes me sad. I do understand that from a business perspective of why would you do that. And before they were so big, they had to do that because they needed the favor.

Right? When, like, companies are starting up, they, of course, have to, like, lean on the audiences of other networks. But once you get, you know, enough shows that you can just sort of, like, support each other, then, of course, you wanna keep people in your network because your advertisers are counting on that. And I I just think that's wrong thinking overall.

Doesn't this all go back to the CPM model? Because a lot of those shows are on the CPM model, and they are screwed if they don't hit their numbers on this CPM model that is broken. So then they can't they don't care about all ships rising suddenly.

So Is anyone making it off of the CPM? The cost per 1,000, which is advertising model where your money comes in because you sell ads against it. Is anyone, making money off that?

I think some of the big

Pushkin shows are. I mean, I could be wrong. I've been gone from there for 2 years now, but I I they they were bringing in big advertising dollars. I mean, although maybe it was back in the day. Maybe they're not anymore.

I I I I don't know.

I don't know because I'm very curious to see, like, nowadays advertisers are getting a lot more savvy about what they're actually buying in terms of, like, those CPM numbers, and they wanna actually see a return on them. And I feel like, like, 2 year if you go back to 2 years ago and even before that with, like, Pushkin or any other company, like, they were living in a time when you could just say anything to an advertiser. And they'd be like, yeah, whatever. Here's $1,000,000. You'd be like, yeah, we're gonna get you to a 1,000,000 downloads.

And it wasn't always that wasn't always the case. Whereas now, especially as the money began to contract, you see that people are a little bit more, stingy with their line items.

There are some really big shows though. Like shows that can really deliver millions of listeners, and that that has to be valuable for an advertiser.

This is where I'm really interested because because Ronald talked about it contracting, but what I think is super interesting about this is it's contracting for a certain echelon of people Yes. That, like, the industry is supposedly worth over $20,000,000,000 which, like, in terms of video games, music. Like I see

none of that.

It's not like we haven't seen any

of it.

Right? Like, it generates over 2,000,000,000 in ad revenue. Ad revenue. Right? But, like, exactly like Ronald said, acclaimed show sold one ad.

Can't make, you know, if only if 5,000 downloads is the top 1% of podcasts, but 10,000 downloads is really where you start being able to sell ads, that's $2,000,000,000 going to less than 1% of the people who make shows.

And, unfortunately, making a beautiful show like what Ronald made isn't you don't get rewarded with that money. And you almost get penalized by taking the time to that excellent production and beautiful storytelling and having a limited series, oh my goodness, a limited series, that's just not what people are getting rewarded for.

Where my head goes after that is is places like Radiotopia, right, where you bring together kind of the best of the best and you sell across the whole network instead of relying on one individual show to carry them all, kinda like 99% 99 p I did back in the day, and you stick you allow all of the creators to kind of band together in this collective way to sell across the network and and achieve the kind of numbers that advertisers wanna see. But my understanding is that it doesn't actually work, and I would love to know why.

Yeah. This all makes me really ask the question if the balances that we have outlined are so off in terms of how to make this workable. The premise that we started this whole thing with was this idea of, like, an industry. Right? So, like, distinct economic sector producing its own goods made up by relationships between many businesses and other commercial entities.

Is podcasting actually an industry?

What a question.

I mean, I don't know. That it's such a bad question, but the creators matter. Right? Yes. Like, it's about talent.

It's about creative people expressing themselves through a medium. Is that an industry? I mean, I don't know. I I I don't it it should be. Like, creative you should be able to support creators in this economy.

That and, again, I'm sorta you know, I feel so like, I just say this stuff, and it feels so it seems so naive, but I really believe it. It's like supporting the arts. Right? You are supporting talented people who have a vision and have skill at executing that vision in whatever format it is. There is so much talent in this industry and they should be I've said it.

I said the reason You

said it. I just I raised

my finger and I pointed

right? Like What's the Right?

It's an old industry. Right? Podcasting is not new. Podcasting is just an extension of public radio, which has been around for a very long time. This is not new.

It is just a different distribution model. It's digital distribution instead of broadcast distribution. And another thing that drives me bonkers is that radio stations can't figure out how to monetize podcasts when it's exactly the same thing that they've been selling for decades? What is the difference?

I think it's captive audience. I think that's what it is. Because I think, like, at one point, like, if you think about listening to the radio, like, we really didn't have a choice as to what we were listening to. And so, like, you would get into the car and it'd be like, whatever radio station was on, you were gonna listen through to the ads. Sometimes you switch between radio station until you realize that they were all playing ads at the same time, so it really didn't even matter.

So you just picked your favorite. Whereas now, it just feels like the fact that people have so many, like, avenues of entertainment to choose from, that it feels like because there's still people trying to get maximum money out of all of those avenues for whatever, like, the people who end up getting squeezed is us, the creators. Like, we are the ones who end up getting squeezed because we're the ones getting smaller checks. We're the ones who have to work longer and do multiple jobs in order to make what we would have made if we had just, like, had a hit morning show in the nineties. You know what I mean?

But that just doesn't that doesn't really happen anymore. So I think when people try to think of it as an extension of radio, I think what they like, the one thing that we forget is, like, you had a captive audience, and there was much more of a monoculture in those days. And it's so it's so fractured now that it's, like, it's hard to figure out how to it's hard for them to figure out how to monetize us, which it makes it harder for us, to be honest.

And it's hard for us to figure out what the value of a listener is because that's back to the CPM problem. I'm gonna stop talking about that. But it's also hard for listeners

to find stuff that they, you know, to find new stuff that they're gonna love. Right? Like, this is I mean, this gets to the issue of discovery. Right? And so, I mean, another thing I've been thinking about is the idea of trust I mean, this is what Lauren said earlier about, like, needing to have sort of that friend who taps you on the shoulder and says, hey, you should listen to this show.

This is so good. I love this. Right? So that idea and the thing with the radio show is that a radio station is that, like, you keep going back to the same station because you love it for whatever reason. Right?

Either there's a host that you love or it's relevant to your geographic area or you feel nostalgic for it for whatever reason, but you trust that they're gonna give you stuff that you like. And that has kind of with on demand, that's kind of, like, gone out the window. Like, you have you can trust an algorithm maybe. But I'm interested in going, like, somehow bringing back this idea of a recommendation engine that actually works to recommend a a an array of things based on the type of person you are. Right?

So, like, I am not gonna listen to The New York Times app because I don't wanna listen to New York Times day in and day out. I like more variety in what I am listening to. I like a lot of different stuff. So I'm gonna listen to the stuff that's already in my, you know, in my player. And then if somebody tells me that I should listen to some episode of something, I'm gonna check that out too.

But I need, like, a a more singular place to go to hear stuff that I am pretty convinced I'm gonna enjoy.

Are you talking about Podcast the newsletter?

I hear. Of course.

It's very hard to convert a non listener to a listener, so I don't even try. Like, Ronald, I'm curious about your award winning show that was so beautiful and perfect. Even your show, could you get non listeners to listen to it? Because I have a hard time getting non listeners to listen. So I think that's another problem.

I did this thing in last April. I called it adopt adopt a listener month, and I try to get people to adopt one listener because I was like, that's we just need to crack those people.

And by adopt, you mean you mean, hey. Let me hold your hand and show

you how to download. No. Have them join their families. They're now paying for their school

and education. No. It's classic. Yep. Yep.

No. Yeah. Actually, get find a show for them

Yeah.

And get them hooked. I was like, yes. This is what we need. This is what we do. So a bunch of me and Ariel Nissenblatt and a bunch of people got in, Washington Square Park one day.

Signs, sidewalk chalk. I was like, this is gonna be amazing. We're gonna toss stop people on the street and say, what do you like? I'm gonna find that perfect show for you. You're from Ohio?

There's a show about buckeyes. Did you know that? My gosh. Let's just say the people we talked to taught me more than I taught them. They didn't know how to download 1.

Yeah. They only listened on Apple Podcasts. And YouTube, they watched things on YouTube that were not podcasts and thought they were podcasts. I was not giving them niche recommendations. I was like, please listen to a podcast.

I was getting people I was recommending Joe Rogan to people that were only listening to Jordan Peterson. Okay? Like Woah. There's so this is like a side problem, but it's a big problem.

We talk about converting non listeners, but there is a bunch of listeners. Because if you think about podcasting, it is kinda fractured into 2 schools, which is, like, the public radio school and then the everybody else school, I would say.

Commercial. It's a commercial school. It's it's commercial television. Yeah. Yeah.

It's bigger.

And that's what I'm saying. They they're bigger, but there's a lot of commercial listeners who would love the stuff that's made by the public radio folks and vice versa. And I feel like I don't see enough, like, cross pollination between those two audiences, I e, like, someone who, like, likes Joe Rogan and also regularly listens to Radio Lab. You know what I mean? Where there's, like, there's probably something there for both of those audiences, but I don't see them intersect enough.

I think there's something I wanna introduce here which was said to me by someone. If you are listening, and you are that someone, please let me know, because I would love to attribute it to you, but I don't remember who you are. So I'm gonna pretend, like I thought of it, but I actually think we need to go farther. Recommendation has a feeling of hoping and, like, we haven't quite gotten to the level where we trust ourselves yet. I think we actually need criticism.

We have no one

Mhmm.

No one in this industry who will criticize another person's work. We do it in private a little bit, but in public, we are glowing with each other and we only have recommendation sources. No one really is out there doing the work that is done with TV, that is done with music, that is done with video games, that is done with with with with with with with all the way down the line. And I think whoever was very smart person was said to me, you're not a real industry until you have critics.

Samantha Hatter is doing this with Bingeworthy. She's a Toronto based creator and she is, she is trying to invite criticism into the podcast industry, and it's like walking on eggshells, you know, because because we're so sort of, supportive of each other. But I I totally agree with you, and I think that we need to be willing to accept criticism and also be supportive of each other at the same time. Right? I think it's very it feels very scary to be criticized because we're also fragile.

You know?

Well, we've got rep sweats, which is something I actually learned from a podcast, code switch. I usually think about it with screen time. You're afraid to criticize a movie because you don't wanna bring it down. I think I have rep sweats about podcasts, and that's why I give glowing recommendations. And, Mia, you said that we're afraid.

It's like we're not there we're not yet there yet, but can we get there if we don't do it?

I think part of it is, like, without criticism, you don't also you also don't push the medium forward. Mhmm. Like, we we spend a lot of time having, like, one person, one journalist who was doing all of the anointing of of things for a while. And, and then after a while, I I started to, like, recognize, especially in the last year or 2 with working with Wait For It, how held in a lot of ways that that anointing was biased. And I, for a long time, I thought that was criticism that was happening there.

And it turned out it was really just like kind of king making and just like Elias, a lot of bias talking. But we don't just we don't really get somebody coming. And there was also a show, which I will not name. Lauren, I know you know what this show is. There was also a show that came out in the past year that a lot of us really hated.

And no one said anything out loud. I saw people tweeting about it, and I was ready to dive into their DMs saying this show is not only not good, it is harmful to the industry. And people were nervous to speak up and say stuff, you know, including me.

I'm not even gonna say it now. Rebecca Lavoie spoke

about it. She did. She did. She's a real one. Rebecca Lavoie is a real one.

But I

feel like we're pulling out individual examples of, like, but there's one person. But if we're, like, a real industry, which is exactly Ronald, you even said the word when you just said that of, like, you know, we can't push forward as an industry, and and and I think criticism is often misunderstood as hatred, or it's misunderstood as, like, fault instead of adoration. Like, so much of criticism is built from a place of love and wanting something to be better and knowing that it has the capacity to be better, and can we have accountability with each other, which is a thing I think we don't have that feels suffused through this whole conversation, to each other, with each other, and how we how we relate. It feels so intense, and so I just wanna restate this question that I think is at the core of all of this, which is, are we an industry? Lauren, what do you think?

I I think I mean, once again, it's like, what a what a question. But I mean, yes. I think, yes. I think of myself in the industry, and I this is how I make my living.

Mhmm.

But I'm not making the shows, but it's an industry that I that I think I work in. I think it I think it is.

Ronald, I'm curious about you.

I mean, it's it is. It is an industry. We're new. We're very new, and we're very young. And we had some very traumatic things happen within the industry.

The layoffs alone. If you go through layoffs in the last year and then expand that, that has been really hard for people. Some people left podcasting completely because of that. And these are folks that have been working in public radio for years and then transitioned over to podcasting and then lost their jobs. It is a real industry.

But because we are so new and because what is happening, you know, economically with media across disciplines you know what I mean? Like, Hollywood is struggling right now. Between streaming and putting a movie in theaters and acting and all that, they are struggling. And if Hollywood, which we know is an industry, is struggling, and they've been around for decades, if we know they're struggling, then I don't know why we would think that, you know, us as podcasting, a very young fledgling industry, wouldn't be prone to some growing pains. And I feel like that's kind of where we are now.

The question is, will we grow or will we fade? And if you ask me that, I just don't feel as optimistic that it's gonna exist as we know it in the next 20 years. You know, I don't I don't know what version of of audio production is gonna exist for us. Yeah.

Me

I was just gonna say yeah. I was just gonna say, I I totally agree with what you say. And if you about the industry just being so new. To the majority of consumers, podcasting is brand new and just getting started. And I disagree that it's gonna fade.

I think only because audio as a medium is is so old. I think audio as a medium is going to continue, and in some digital form, it's gonna continue to grow. What form that takes, I have no idea. But I I don't think that audio as an industry is going anywhere.

Yes. I look forward to the day that we listen back to this conversation and laugh our asses off.

Right? Absolutely. I mean, there's a there's the the growing pains part of it is something I really take, you know, in my heart that, like, absolutely this is growing pains. And with any growing pains, like, it hurts. It hurts.

And I would like to go back to where we started, and I would like to go back around the horn. And I would like to revisit your answers to that first question and see after all of this time of talking how you're feeling. So 1 to 10. 1 being anyone can do it tomorrow with minimal effort. 10 being the most difficult, nearly impossible for anyone.

How difficult is it for someone with no preexisting audience to build one large enough to make a living with podcasting?

Man, when you ask it that way, I would say it's, for me, it's at a firm 8 slash 9.

So you went up.

Because I'm like, to go from nothing to getting a, like, a fully sustained audience making a living, I'm I mean, I'm not going from nothing. I've gone from something, and and I'm still not making a living making weight for it.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm like, I don't I don't know who's who's doing it, having nothing, and they would have to unless their name is Travis Davonte Kelsey, I don't know who else.

But he has a little bit of something.

That's exactly he has an existing audience, so I'm wrong. I'm still wrong again.

Lauren, how about you?

I'm, listen, I wish I could have been monitoring my number throughout because I kept on thinking, oh, I think I'm going up to oh, and I'm sliding back in. I'm I refuse to be a pessimistic. I demand to grasp on my optimism. I'm staying a 3.

Staying a 3. And, Mia, you were a 5 last time.

Yeah. I mean, I'm hearing everything Ronald's saying, and I am not trying to make a podcast. Right? Like, I have a diverse range of things that I do to try to make ends meet, and it's debatable whether I'm actually making ends meet right now in my current freelance state. But, also, I I also like to be optimistic.

So I'm gonna stick with a 5 and say we are in tumultuous times, and it is it is difficult but not impossible. I'm gonna stay right in the middle, cop out answer. Okay.

Can I ask Ronald one more question?

Sure.

So there was, hear me out. Their podcast had to end. I could tell they were very upset about this. Their last episode was, is podcasting dead? And they were supposed to be arguing whether it was dead or not.

1 person, yes, 1 person, no. By the end, they were both, yes. Podcasting is dead. Is would you say that?

No. I don't think podcasting is dead. I think, when I said fade or grow, what I'm saying is, like, the idea of being able to make a living by just having a podcast. Like, you used to be able to go to a radio station as a DJ and make either a full time or part time job, like just talking into a microphone. And at one point, we thought that we were there was a bunch of us that thought we were gonna be able to do that in podcasting.

And I think that that iteration is possibly dead. But, Lauren, I just wanna say, I wanna be clear. I'm not pessimistic on the craft of creators and any of that stuff.

Yeah.

But as the industry, like, it is hard to have faith.

Yeah.

Like, y'all know what we're dealing with out here. Y'all had the same meetings I've had.

Yeah. You

know what I mean?

I think we're getting a lot of nods in the in the meeting here, and I feel like that is a really good sentiment to kind of carry us, buoy us all into that positive place that I think we're all looking to be if we possibly can. So I just wanna thank Lauren, Mia, Ronald. Thank you all for coming on. You were the perfect group of people to help us tease this out and think this through. So thanks for taking the time coming on the show and talking with us about all this.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Pleasure. Thank you. So honored to be here with you all.

Where can folks find you on the Internet? Let's start with Mia.

You can find me at freelancecafe.substack.com.

What about you, Lauren?

I think if you go to Tinkmedia.co, you can find everything I do.

And Ronald, how about you?

I am on Instagram, threads, TikTok, and x at ohitsbigron. That's atohitsbigr0n. Instagram is the one I use the most. Please follow me on Instagram. It's Instagram.

Thank you.

Alright. And we will have links to all that stuff in the show notes.